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From the women whose calculations helped land
the first man on the moon, to the first black

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astronaut to live aboard the International
Space Station for an extended stay, NASA has

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stretched the limits of what humankind can
achieve due in no small part to the contributions

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of black Americans.

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There have been a number of people who have
helped me a great deal throughout my career

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here at NASA.

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And they feel like family members to me.

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The Rocket Ranch welcomes Sheldon Lauderdale,
Program Analyst for NASA's Commercial Crew

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Program, which last year returned human spaceflight
to orbit from U.S. soil.

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Shel will tell us what it's like to be part
of the NASA family.

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He'll share where he draws inspiration, plus,
he’ll talk about his role supporting NASA’s

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efforts to expand diversity and inclusion
to empower the next generation of explorers.

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I'm Marie Lewis, and this is the Rocket Ranch.

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EGS program chief engineer verifying no constraints
to launch.

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Three, two, one, and lift off.

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Welcome to space.

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All right.

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Welcome, Sheldon Lauderdale.

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Thanks for being here.

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Thank you for having me.

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You are the Management and Program Analyst
for NASA's Commercial Crew Program.

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I know you're currently working a detail assignment
to the Launch Services Program.

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But in a sentence or two, can you sum up what
does that job entail?

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So I basically manage the budget and the people
for the Launch Services Program and the Commercial

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Crew Program.

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I help with that function.

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So I'm a budget guy.

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And so I've been a budget guy my entire career,
and that's what I'm doing now.

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So it's pretty exciting.

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As you know, nothing moves without money.

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Exactly.

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So I always have to remind my technical friends
of that fact.

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So yeah, that's what I'm doing.

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Absolutely.

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I've been on the detail about six months,
so it's pretty exciting.

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Okay, great.

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Well we certainly appreciate the job that
you do.

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Yes.

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So this year's Black History Month theme is
family.

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And I know we've talked about this a little
bit before, but what does it mean to you to

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be part of the NASA family?

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Sure.

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There have been a number of people who have
helped me a great deal throughout my career

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here at NASA, and they feel like family members
to me.

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I will acknowledge a few of them today.

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This is by no means all of them.

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Mack McKinney, Roslyn McKinney, Nap Carroll,
Jim Jennings, Pat Hanan, folks like Cheryl

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McPhillips, Connie Milton, Roselle Hanson,
Bob Sampson.

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I could go on and on and on.

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And the cool thing is that a lot of these
folks were higher grades than me or managers

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even, and they treated me just like a normal
person.

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They didn't have an air of superiority or
invincibility about them, and they really

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helped me along the way.

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And so I'm very grateful for those individuals.

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And they do feel like a part of my family
because I'm working with these folks...

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And folks that I'm working with right now.

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Mm-hmm.

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Right?

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I work with these people all day, every day,
not during COVID of course.

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But they feel like family members to me.

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So that's just a little bit of what family
means to me being out here at NASA.

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And the picture of the NASA family has certainly
evolved over the years.

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I know generations ago, NASA was by all appearances
dominated by white males, and that makes me

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curious to ask you when you were growing up,
was NASA something you aspired to?

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If so, what was the inspiration?

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And if not, what changed?

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I did not aspire to work for NASA.

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I didn't dream about what was out in space.

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I mean I looked out there and tried to count
the stars, of course, like all kids do, but

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I had no desire, if you will, to work for
NASA.

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I was more interested in working for Wall
Street, that's what I wanted to do.

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And so my career path and it's classes that
I took, et cetera, led me down to that path.

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Mm-hmm.

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And I didn't get a chance to do that.

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So I took a little detour, I worked in banking
in Alabama at some places.

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And I did an internship down here at NASA
back in 1994.

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Again, met some awesome people during my time
there, Mr. J. Diggs, Miss Evelyn Johnson,

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the folks that I mentioned earlier.

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And they were at a certain level at that time.

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And I enjoyed my experience then, but I said
I'm not working for the government.

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I'm just not going to do it.

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And here you are.

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And so my mother worked for the government
and she would always tell me, "You need to

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get on with the government.

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You need to work for the government."

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And so I finally listened and an opportunity
came up at my school back in 2001.

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And I interviewed and I got the job.

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And so I've been here ever since.

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So now I'm mad that I didn't start work right
away because I'd be five or six years closer

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to retirement.

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But that's how the story goes sometimes.

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And so you spoke about being hired by NASA
in 2001 was not initially something you aspire

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to.

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What was it like when you were first hired?

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Did you feel like you're a part of the NASA
family?

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And how did the feeling then compare to where
you are now and the feeling that you have

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now?

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Yeah, I always felt like I was part of the
NASA family because I already knew people

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before I got here.

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And so as I mentioned, there were some folks
who I worked with during my internship that

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was still here, thankfully.

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And so it was an easy transition for me in
terms of the people.

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Now, it wasn't so much an easy transition
in terms of the work, because I was used to

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working with companies where the focus was
making money, and with the government, that's

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not the focus.

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And so that took a little bit of an adjustment
period for me.

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But having those people and those connections
that I had already really helped me to get

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into a groove here at NASA.

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And in a lot of ways, it's very similar today
as it was then.

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I've known a lot of folks, I knew a lot of
folks then and they're still here.

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Some of them are getting ready to retire,
their hair's getting a little grayer and whatnot.

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And a lot of the management looks the same.

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You could say that that's consistency or you
can say we still got a little room to grow

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in that area.

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I choose the latter.

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But overall, the feeling of togetherness and
family is pretty similar for me now in relation

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to when it was then.

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So not much has changed in that area for me.

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You threw out several names of people who
inspired you past and present, and some of

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them are on this monitor wall behind us.

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Yeah.

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Can you dive a little deeper into what it
was, what were the specific traits that some

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of these people had that made you feel inspired
to go farther?

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I know you feel...

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We've talked about NASA having some room for
improvement.

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What were the things about these individuals
that really made you feel inspired to do more?

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Well just how they conducted themselves.

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Whenever I asked them for help, they were
always there to help me.

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Delores Abraham, who is up here on this wall,
I could call her at any time of day, any day

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of the week and ask her a question about something
and she would be there to help me.

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Now, I always owed her after the fact now.

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I didn't always pay it, but she was always
there, never denied me one iota of her time

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or her effort.

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And so those types of people inspire me, the
people that I just mentioned a second ago,

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and many others, folks that I work with today.

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I'm always looking at each of those individuals
to see what they do well and I try to incorporate

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that into my attitude and my going about business
of being who I am.

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And I also look at people to see what not
to do as well and make sure I don't incorporate

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that.

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But those are the folks that inspire me.

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And also my family.

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I want to make sure I do well for them.

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I want to make sure that I'm making them proud.

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I want to make sure that the people who believed
in me here at NASA, who hired me and the folks

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who are my official and unofficial mentors
here are proud of me.

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So those are the folks that inspire me.

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And all these people inspire me because I
know that they had a tough road to get to

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where they are.

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So they are an inspiration for me as well.

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I listen to you speak, and I'm going to bring
up something that I know strikes a nerve for

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a lot of people, but I feel like we can't
really have a conversation about Black History

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Month without acknowledging this.

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In the aftermath of the George Floyd tragedy
last year, there was turmoil around the country.

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We here at NASA, we're getting ready to launch
the first Americans back into space from U.S.

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soil in almost a decade, it was really a lot
of ups and downs last year for a lot of people.

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Mm-hmm.

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And a lot of that we're still experiencing.

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And I know that across the agency, we had
a lot of small group conversations where people

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could just listen to each other, no judgment,
no taking political sides, just let's just

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talk.

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And in one of those conversations, I listened
to you in a small group of people from the

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Commercial Crew Program.

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And I was struck by your words.

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They really had an impact on me and that's
part of the reason I wanted to reach out to

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you today.

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How did you feel speaking out in that group
about the way that that incident and other

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incidents you've experienced have shaped how
you show up in NASA and in the world?

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And do you think those conversations have
been helpful?

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Do we need to do more of them?

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Just want to get your take now that we've
had some time to reflect.

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Yeah.

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We definitely need more of them.

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I will touch on the other question first.

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And that is that I always try to carry myself
in the best light possible because I know

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that I not only represent myself, I represent
a whole swath of other people, either fairly

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or unfairly.

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And that's just the times and the situations
that we live in.

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And so I have to be very careful not to offend
or not to make mistakes or not to go sideways

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in a conversation, or what have you.

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And that's a big burden to bear.

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And a lot folks like me have to bear that
burden and other folks don't have to bear

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that burden.

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That's just a fact.

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And so what I try to do is just make sure
I stay as smart as I can, as honest and as

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inviting as I can so that I can help to touch
back on the subject of family, expand that

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NASA family and make sure everybody feels
included.

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We do need to have more of these conversations
and these conversations will be fruitful if

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you have people who are fair, if they are
truly genuine people.

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If you don't have people like that, then these
conversations are not going to be successful

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at all.

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And there are some people out there like that.

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So we have to figure out a way to move around
those people and get to folks like you and

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other folks that I know who are more in the
middle and more moderate in their thinking,

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and try to expand that base a little bit so
that we can continue to make progress.

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We've been having these problems since the
Niña, the Pinta and the Santa María got

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here.

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That's a long, long time.

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And so we've been having these starting conversations
for many years, and it's time to end these

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conversations.

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We need to start moving at a rocket's pace
and not a snail's pace anymore.

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And the things that I saw last year, to be
honest with you, I'd never thought that I

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would see in my lifetime.

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I mean there were more people out there marching
and protesting.

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I'm not for the extracurricular stuff that
was going on, but there were a lot of people

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who look like you who are out there.

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And so I never thought I'd see that in my
lifetime.

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And so that's encouraging, and I have hope
for the future.

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And I just hope that all of the right folks
are involved in the conversation so that we

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can move this agenda or conversation forward
even more.

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What does that look like?

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I mean you talked about the conversations
are helpful, but they only go so far.

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Right.

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How do we, as an agency, continue to embrace
diversity and inclusion as a core value?

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Well you have to do it, right?

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It's one thing to talk about it and to pacify
someone about it so that they can stop talking

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about it for a time being, but you have no
intentions on enacting any change.

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We have to be about the business of recognizing
folks like me and others.

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We have to be about the business of not only
hiring these people, but then also actively

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promoting these people.

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It takes all phases, all right?

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It's one thing to say I've interviewed 20
African-Americans, but I didn't hire any of

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them.

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Then what good is that?

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That serves no purpose.

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And so that's how you advance the agenda.

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Folks like me, and I'm just speaking for folks
like me, there is a whole swath of people

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out there who are misrepresented.

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But for folks like me, we are just as capable
of doing the job.

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We can do the job.

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We can speak articulately, we can handle meetings,
we can do the technical stuff.

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We just need not only the opportunity, but
the actual selection to do the job.

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And so it's going to take folks like you to
say, "Okay, we got to make this a more perfect

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union," and this is how we can start doing
that.

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My last question for you, and I think you've
kind of already answered it, but I don't know

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if you want to expand on this, is how are
you working to try to empower the next generation

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of explorers, black explorers and everybody
else who wants to be part of the NASA family

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who wants to explore and go farther than we've
ever gone before?

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I try to tell people that you don't have to
be an astronaut or an engineer to work at

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NASA.

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You can be a doctor, you can be a lawyer,
you can be an architect, you can be a graphics

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person.

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You can be someone who can handle conferences
and that sort of thing.

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You can be someone who understands contracts.

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And so I think if you open it up to that,
then you will get more people interested and

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feel that they can be a part of NASA and contribute
to the missions of NASA.

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Another big thing that I enjoy that NASA does
is bring your kids to work day.

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And so I brought my kids out here and they
loved it.

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And they always ask me, "When can we go again?"

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I say, "We can't go now, all right?"

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Not right now,
But that is a thing that can inspire the next

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generation of folks as well.

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And then I have people all the time who ask
me how they can get on with NASA.

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And I talk about the pathways, program, et
cetera.

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And so those are ways, it may be a conversation
in a grocery store or in a shopping area,

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what have you.

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And that's how you can inspire the next generation
of explorers.

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And I think NASA makes the job easy, all right?

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Because what we do out here is good stuff
that people want to be involved with and want

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to be a part of.

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So we don't have to do that much selling,
right?

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And in the name of, I know I said it was my
last question, but I do have one more, as

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we're sitting here with these, these remarkable
people behind us, and this is obviously a

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tiny, tiny sampling of the people who have
literally blazed a trail, what haven't I asked

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about that you want to talk about?

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Because if you remember, when I first approached
you about having this conversation, it really

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struck me that you said, "Nobody's ever asked
me before what I think about this," and it

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made me sad that you'd never been asked.

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So I want to give you the opportunity to share
if there's something that I haven't asked

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about that you think is really important for
people to know about Black History Month and

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your experience.

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Well thank you for that.

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And it may not seem like it, but I am an introvert.

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It may not seem like it after this interview
here, but I am.

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But thank you for this opportunity.

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I would just say thank you to those folks
who overwhelmingly look like you who are trying

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really hard to do the right thing, and those
that are doing the right thing.

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I don't think you guys get enough credit.

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So I want to just make sure that you know
that I see you, I acknowledge you and I thank

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you.

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And keep doing what you're doing.

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You have my backing and my support for what
that's worth.

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Well I appreciate that.

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Thank you for those words.

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I would also like to take this opportunity
to thank some people, my parents, my grandparents,

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my great-grandparents, and all of my relatives
who survived slavery and Jim Crow to allow

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me to be here today.

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And I've never publicly acknowledged them
before, but those are my true heroes.

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They should be all on this board here.

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They're all on my mental board.

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And my great, great, great grandfather, his
name was Isaac, was a slave.

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And I often wonder what he would think of
me today.

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And so I hope, I can only hope, that I am
making him proud, because I know I'm a far

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away dream from what he thought as a young
kid or as a young man.

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And then finally, I will talk about, I will
speak to the people who think that folks like

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me complain too much, or there are no issues
or no problems.

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And I would offer a scenario to these people.

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And that scenario is let's trade places and
let me tell you what that would mean.

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That would mean people like me would control
the financial system, control the legal system.

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We get to make the laws.

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We get to control the school systems to determine
who gets suspended or expelled.

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We get to control the judicial system.

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And I will share a story with you, I'll share
the story that I shared briefly when we had

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the tag up there.

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I can remember four Caucasian police officers
in 1989, I said 1988 when I told the story

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before, but it was actually in 1989, had an
average sized African-American woman in handcuffs.

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She wasn't yelling, she wasn't screaming,
she wasn't disrespectful.

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The one police officer who didn't have on
a uniform, he had on all brown, he was the

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biggest one so I'm assuming he was the chief
or the sheriff.

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As he was putting her in the police car, he
just indiscriminately started beating her

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in the head and in the face.

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She didn't do anything.

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She's handcuffed and she's a woman.

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And my heart sank that day and I was very
angry.

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And when she left the parking lot, I have
no idea what happened to that woman after

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she left the parking lot.

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But I know nothing good happened to her.

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And I can guarantee you 100% that nothing
happened to those police officers.

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Absolutely nothing.

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Just imagine for a moment that those situations
or that situation was reversed.

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Just imagine.

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But on the flip side, we'll give you guys
affirmative action.

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You can be Beyonce, you can be LeBron James,
you can be Michael Jackson, you can be Oprah

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Winfrey.

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You can also be Martin Luther King, Medgar
Evers, Jimmy Lee Jackson, the four little

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girls in Birmingham at the 16th Street Baptist
Church.

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You could be Willy Edwards.

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You could be Jimmy Lee Jackson.

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You could be Willie James Harmon.

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And if you don't know any of these people,
that's okay.

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You can Google and look up the stuff that
they went through.

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And if you can look at that with a pure mind
and a pure heart and say you would be okay

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with that, then I don't know what to say.

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I would argue that 0% of people would be okay
with that stuff happening to them.

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And so if you're not okay with that stuff
happening to you, then why do you think we

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are okay with this stuff happening to us?

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We live in a great country.

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This is the greatest country in the world.

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I believe that.

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We live at NASA, or we work at NASA, which
is one the greatest places on earth to work.

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I will say that we still have a lot of room
to grow in terms of diversity.

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All we're asking is for the same things that
everyone else has, nothing more, nothing less.

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Far too often, we deal in the realm of three
worlds, which is the objective world, the

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subjective world and the personal story world.

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And all of those worlds have some merit.

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But far too often, folks like me get lumped
into that subjective world.

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And it's always a yeah, but.

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Yeah, but, yeah, but, yeah, but, yeah, but.

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And that's just not right.

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And so we've all seen some things and gone
through some things and had to maneuver our

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way around certain scenarios here at NASA,
but we shouldn't have to.

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Some people get to walk right through the
front door, no inhibitors, no barriers, no

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nothing.

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Some people get to walk to the front door
and stand for a moment and then they get let

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in.

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And then other folks have to find the door,
then they have to navigate landmines and barbed

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wire fences and get through the molten lava,
and then slay the dragon and then get to the

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front door which is reinforced by 10 inch
thick steel.

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And then if we get through that, then we might
achieve what we set out to achieve.

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And so the final points I will make is that
I've heard that diversity compromises the

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mission.

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That's the most outlandish thing that I've
ever heard.

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If anything, diversity enhances the mission.

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And so I hear people all the time say, "Well
life isn't fair."

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I agree.

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But it's unfair because people make it unfair.

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It's not some nebulous thing that's just floating
around touching people saying, "Your life

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is fair.

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Your life is unfair.

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No, it's people doing this.

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And so I will reiterate this again, is that
I've met a lot of awesome people here at NASA.

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A lot of them don't look like me.

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I've met people from Haiti, from Jamaica,
from Panama, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Chicago, New

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York, Los Angeles, Alabama, Georgia.

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And so it's going to take those right minded
people, those people who have goodness in

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them, all right?

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And they're going to have to just be a little
more bolder with their goodness because good

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is the only thing that can drive out hate.

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And we say that all the time, but that's a
true statement.

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And so if we all collectively, because we're
all related, right?

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If you believe in the good book, we're all
related.

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We all come from Noah.

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And I know that we sometimes fight with one
another, but we're still family, back to the

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NASA family theme.

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And so we just need to make sure that we see
each other, that we hear each other, and that

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we acknowledge each other and spend more time
to confirm, confirm, confirm, as opposed to

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00:27:11,530 --> 00:27:14,350
deny, deny, deny.

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And I guarantee you, if we do that, this place,
which is already awesome, will be a much better

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place.

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I guarantee it.

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00:27:23,470 --> 00:27:26,140
Thank you so much, Shel.

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Really appreciate your time.

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Powerful words.

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00:27:30,140 --> 00:27:29,140
Thank you.

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00:27:30,140 --> 00:27:31,670
Thank you all for having me.

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00:27:31,670 --> 00:27:37,290
A special thanks to Sheldon Lauderdale, Program
Analyst for NASA's Commercial Crew Program.

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00:27:37,290 --> 00:27:44,070
To learn more about everything going on at
the Kennedy Space Center, go to nasa.gov/kennedy.

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00:27:44,070 --> 00:27:48,290
And if you'd like to find out what's happening
at our other NASA centers around the country,

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00:27:48,290 --> 00:27:49,290
go to nasa.gov/podcasts.

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00:27:49,290 --> 00:27:57,340
A special shout out to our producer, John
Sackman, and editor, Mike Chambers.